seat gti motor?

[82cab]

Does anyone know if a Seat gti motor will bolt into a mk1 with out too much trouble?

[Belgianwaffler]

it's the tall 2.0l block found in the MK3 golf ..it will have clearance issues with the bonnet but should be possible with some work (nothing like cutting the chassis, etc...)
Have a chat to Brian from GTI imports in Sydney, you will be able to fit the Audi 9A 2.0l in it without too much trouble.

[GoLfMan]

thatd be a rocket on steroids if you did that. burn alot of riced up jap cars 8)

[82cab]

thats the good thing about owning a cabrio thats 82 onwards, you don't need to engineer it

[GoLfMan]

i heard rumors that you can basically bolt any golf motor 1.6-2 into a mk1 which is great. 8)

[82cab]

you can basically throw in a motor thats 20% bigger than the biggest sized motor for any golf of that year. So if any model came out with a 1.8 you can go up to 2 no probs

[82cab]

sorry i think its 15% bigger

[GoLfMan]

righto but i heard a 1.8 of any golf model will drop straight in. a 2L needs some engineering to drop in. so the solution get a 1.8 and bore it out to 2L :P did a 1.8 come in 16v>?

[82cab]

thats what i was worried about, i was hoping it was going to be the same as the 1.8 16v. Thats why i wanted to know how many mods need to be done to get it in.

[Golfwise]

A Seat GTI 2.0 8valve will go in quite easily as I've already done such without any dramas.
Unless you may be talking about the Cupra 16v but thats not what you wrote.
The exhaust downpipe will have to bee lengthened slightly but thats straight forward.

[82cab]

sorry i was talking about the 2.0 16v abf code

[Belgianwaffler]

yes it will fit but will hit the underside of the bonnet. like I said it is a tall block so if you know anyone with a 1.8 16v in a MK1 add 16mm to the height of that engine and you will have the height of the seat cupra 16v engine
plus the manifold end where the throttle body it attached is also a few mm higher than the std 16v manifold..
still worth a try ...150hp in a MK1 :shock:
the other issue you will have is the exaust manifold, I think that you might get some clearance issues with the shift linkages. but anyone who has done a 16v conversion would know how to resolve that.. I had a downpipe made up to resolve the issue.

[82cab]

thanks for the advice

[GoLfMan]

keep us posted cos if you get 150hp in a mk1 ull be flying mate :)

[Golf Loon]

Cant leave you lot alone for a minute.
Good on you GolfWise, you know the score.

Have been outside taking out a Seat 1.8 8v block to go in my mates Golf and preparing my 16v 9A Passat Motor, which is a 2L and Tall like the Seat engine. I dont think there will be much clearance issue, even with the tall block and I still have the raintray in the Golf.

All engines 1.6-2L have the same basic block, the mounts are different and bolt on in different places, but if you take them off, your stock Mk1 mounts will bolt on and the motor will drop straight in.

Exhaust and clearance are the only issues with the 16v conversion and both can be easily overcome. with a bend in the raintray and a custom bit of exhaust.

GolfWise send me a mount and I can put this engine in and take pics!

[rallye driver]

the 9A is the short version, the ABF is the taller version.

[Golf Loon]

So no clearance issues then. Excellent.

Whats the power outputs for the KR 1.8 16v, 9a and ABF 2l 16v Lumps ?

Doesnt really matter in a Mk1 :lol: :D

[evorobin]

So no clearance issues then. Excellent.

Whats the power outputs for the KR 1.8 16v, 9a and ABF 2l 16v Lumps ?

Doesnt really matter in a Mk1 :lol: :D

http://freespace.virgin.net/paul.mixer/pics/Golf.pdf

KR = 139hp, ABF 150hp although torque is up quite a bit. T3 would be a nice blower to bring it to the boil :twisted:

[Golfwise]

The Passat 9a is perfect for a mk1 they are nicknamed a "bubble block"and are not as high as the Seat 16v.Did my first one back in 1999 and its still going strong.
They are also rated at 139 hp but with free flow intake and exhaust its not hard to hit the 150 mark especially if one uses the euro intake cam.
Try for a 9a or use a 8 valve 2.0 with a cam and good exhaust .There may be a difference on paper but not on the road, and its a sight easier.

[Golf Loon]

NICE. Thats a badboy article.
Makes me hopeful about my 9a with kr cams in a Mk1. Should be good fun. I`m thinking I need wider tyres to keep the power down.

[evorobin]

Makes me hopeful about my 9a with kr cams in a Mk1. Should be good fun. I`m thinking I need wider tyres to keep the power down.

So the 9a is a 2.0 16v short block? I heard the only 2.0 16v sold in oz was the ABF in a seat. Anyway how hard (read expensive) is it to bore out kr 1.8 to 2.0?

[GoLfMan]

Makes me hopeful about my 9a with kr cams in a Mk1. Should be good fun. I`m thinking I need wider tyres to keep the power down. lol i reckon :twisted: itll be a beast and maybye licorice strap tyres aswell with some nice rims put the power down in style 8)

[Golf Loon]

[quote]So the 9a is a 2.0 16v short block? I heard the only 2.0 16v sold in oz was the ABF in a seat. Anyway how hard (read expensive) is it to bore out kr 1.8 to 2.0?[quote]

9a was not sold in Oz. But you can bring em in!

I think you could use a 2L bottom end and use different pistons, or bore out the 1.8 and use expensive pistons. Either way, It`ll cost you.

[GoLfMan]

alas it is a labour of love and money.... wat u put in you get out :)

[evorobin]

alas it is a labour of love and money.... wat u put in you get out :)

Indeed. It's my guess there will be quite a few 16v turbos running around in the future :twisted:

[Golf Loon]

Yeah man, I was looking at my 16v lump and the spare saab turbo in the garage and thinking.....

[GoLfMan]

Yeah man, I was looking at my 16v lump and the spare saab turbo in the garage and thinking.....

dont think its dangerous :P

[Golf Loon]

True, and delays an already lengthly project!

[GoLfMan]

ahh well things like that happen. finish what you already have then think about changes??? like forced induction, ever want to sell that turbo talk to me 8)

[20v kit car]

to get the record straight under 20 16v 9a engines were sold in passats in 1991/2,so there are a few of theses babies about....there are more abf 16v seat engines available producing more hp.remember driving the new passat in 91 thinking the engine was **** hot until the first drive with a abf code 16v.....cheers steve

[TassieGTi]

Some people rave about the ABF 16V, but I would doubt that on the road you would notice the extra 11hp and 11ft.lbs of torque?

1.8 KR 16V (US spec)
123hp @ 5800rpm
120ft.lbs @ 4250rpm

1.8 16V (Euro)
139hp @ 6100rpm
124ft.bs @ 4600

ABF 2.0 16V
150hp @ 6000rpm
135ft.lbs

Many of the KR 16v you would find in Australia would be US spec and would require Euro cams to bump the power up to 139hp.

Difference between ABF 16V and 9A 16V:
digifant 3.0, Rods are 15mm longer(159 vs. 144), block is 16mm taller(236mm vs. 220).
Different cams, narrower intake ports on ABF/9A than KR/PL, better exhaust ports on ABF/9A than KR/PL.
ABF uses 35 mm long valve guides, KR/PL uses 38 mm.
ABF uses different inlet and exhaust valves (95,5 and 97,95 mm long) than KR/PL (95,5 and 98,2 mm long).
ABF uses VR6 valve spring retainers, Longer cambelt for the 16.5mm higher block. ABF uses a welded tube exhaust manifold, KR/PL uses cast exhaust manifold

[DOHCDAVE]

TassieGTi thank you for the extra stats .
Any cams out there to suit PL 16v and could i go a stronger cam to bump it up any higher :?:
And I know there are cams, but just wondering any local eg. Aus

[TassieGTi]

As you would be aware there are plenty of options in the way of cams. Piper, Schrick and Kent would be the best option, but are very very expensive once you get them from the UK. US made Euro spec cams are a little cheaper, but still around $500. Best option is to try and find a pair of standard euro 16v cams to bump the output to 139hp. Would not be easy to come by in Aus. With a few mods, you would be hitting the 150hp mark as achieved by the ABF.

[20v kit car]

tassiegti on paper you may think theres not alot of diff between the 2 engines...from my experience with both engines in stock and modified combos the abf blows the door handles off a stk 16v...the preformance potential of the abf normally aspirated is up to nearly 200kw thats over 270hp..of course the internals are also heavily modified tio acheive this result. at this point the stk g/box has already cried enough!!!!!, as the sounds of marbles in a tin can echo in your ears,, the stk box is good for 200-240hp..its the other parts of the drive line which also suffer cv's ,uprights, wheel bearings etc.have to think what ABF stands for absolute bum?????? cheers steve

[TassieGTi]

No doubt of its potential to be tuned. In standard form I think alot of it is psychological. Tell someone your engine is highly modified when it's not and they'll jump out thinking it is awesome!! My mate has had his VR6 chip tuned to 200hp and mine remains standard! You can't tell the difference on the road! Out on the race track you might notice improved lap times on a std 16v, your average Jo Blo would hardly notice the difference! People get too caught up in figures on paper when there are so many other factors to consider! If you can get hold of a 16V in Aus, bang it in and enjoy the drive!

[GoLfMan]

make the most of what you do have that way youll enjoy it more when the holy grail comes along :) thats wat im doin with my little 1600 carb its got a bit of punch for a stock block.

[el_foolio]

same here mate

[GoLfMan]

is that finemk1's car in ur avatar?? foolio

[el_foolio]

nop, just a random tassie golf. i was sick of my old avatar, and that was the only pic i had on me, ill change it to a pic of one of my cars

[GoLfMan]

i can get a G60 motor with gearbox for $5000 wat do peple think of that

[Golfwise]

Not worth the head ache fixing the supercharger all the time only one answer to that 1.8t!!!!!!!!!

[GoLfMan]

Not worth the head ache fixing the supercharger all the time only one answer to that 1.8t!!!!!!!!!

how much do they cost?

[20v kit car]

tassiegti I doubt your mate has 200hp as this is 146kw and no chip tune in the world gives a AAA engine close to 30kw upgrade...point proved when your std vr6 drives the same..man you really notice 30kw , without a camshaft change and some induction mods etc etc a vr6 engine is 128kw stk..Oettinger germany's leading tuning firm say its useless to chip a normally asperated engine without further mods to the internals...chip only tuning increases fuel delivery and limited timing improvments which equals increase consumption and emitions..for very little kw gain.cheers steve

[Golfwise]

I've driven it too and can't pick the difference.
One shouldn't believe all the hype about chips on some engines.

[finemk1]

my train of thought...... if your going to the trouble of fitting a 16v and have a bit of extra cash!!....$600-$1000
do ya self a favour and get a aftermarket EMS, yes the VW kjet and the standard injection is good, but u just cant compare with a aftermarket one, ,easier to use, will get bigger gain and will maximise potential out of any engine! im slowly lerning how to use the tuning program on pc befor taking on a laptop and actually using it in the car for road tuning... the biggest problem is tuning cost/dyno time i pay $250/tune. lerning how to is the cost of a laptop but u can steal that. im running a Microtech Lt8 system and it blew me away, controls ignition and fuel and will never go back to stock computers..

[TassieGTi]

20v kit car...

Mates VR6 received chip tune from Power Chip Australia. Quoted improvements are from 128kw to 140kw and 256NM of torque. He also has induction mods and an exhaust system. If you believed what is said, there is no reason why it would not be approx. 195/200hp. It is obviously bs, as I said, there is no noticeable difference. That is the exact reason I decided to save the $1000 he spent on the chip. I still stick to my belief that unless you make significant improvements to an engine's output, you are not going to notice a significant difference on the road, apart from psychologically!

[20v kit car]

I agree aftermarket efi systems are really the only way to fly...so much potential and a lot of fun to boot....although the later factory cars systems are more advanced with more potential which brings the cost factor into a different ball game...chip tune mk4 110kw up to143kw without altering anything else..nice and easy...so the future is bright when playing with later cars cheers steve

[VanKronenburg]

tassiegti on paper you may think theres not alot of diff between the 2 engines...from my experience with both engines in stock and modified combos the abf blows the door handles off a stk 16v...the preformance potential of the abf normally aspirated is up to nearly 200kw thats over 270hp..of course the internals are also heavily modified tio acheive this result. at this point the stk g/box has already cried enough!!!!!, as the sounds of marbles in a tin can echo in your ears,, the stk box is good for 200-240hp..its the other parts of the drive line which also suffer cv's ,uprights, wheel bearings etc.have to think what ABF stands for absolute bum?????? cheers steve

There is infact not much difference. The ABF develops its torque differently due to having a different rod:stroke ratio due to the tall block configuration. As a result, the peak figures are often around 400rpm higher than a comparative 9a/6a 2.0 16v.

The ABF head flows slightly better as the casting was cleaned up (exhaust side still a joke, however), the main benefit is in the cams - it was good to have Digifant III injection but the mapping was not very good. There is a common misconception that the ABF shares a cam specification with the 9a - ie weak inlet cam. This is not true, the ABF has the best standard 16v cams of all with considerable valve lift.

In terms of general engine specification, the ABF is not exclusive in its ability to make 270hp. This is possible with a 9a. The VWM ABF motors making such power figures had tapered throttle bodies and an entirely different head casting with a 7deg cut on the block for valve clearance with 13.5:1 compression pistons. One could use the same parts in a 9a.

A 9a with ABF or KR cams and K-jetronic injection will perform much the same as a stock ABF; the ABF will just develop torque higher due to the alternate rod:stroke ratio.

The biggest benefit of buying an ABF for a transplant is that it is a younger motor and one can assume it then has lower mileage. I chose an ABF for my Mk1 over 2 years ago and ahve since turbocharged it and it has proven very reliable.

[20v kit car]

great to get a bit of dutch expertise on this forum ..i agree with your evaluation between the two engines..my personal experience with with a std abf over a 9a or kr have been in the abf favour ...as far as a modified abf its another story.....i currently own a mk3 golf kit car no17 which was owned by austrian rally champ Dumslarger [spelling needs check] it has the VWM engine which i unfortunatley destroyed at a state rallysprint....this engine is a work of art..the block needs also to be milled 7mm which works in favour with the 7degre valve clearence.. all the valve stems are also machined down to help increase flow at the head .the Lehman engineers are smart and the head flow was improved up to the FIA homolgation standards.I also understand with discussions with VWM that all the remaining mk3/4 rally bits were bought by a dutch firm do you know them? are you using a k4 turbo on your latest upgrade more info please..have a std abf in need of a tickle up cheers steve

[VanKronenburg]

Hi,

Wow, I wasn't aware people had any VWM cars in Australia!! I have a number of friends there who would no doubt be interested to know this!

My latest motor is one we built using a hybrid T3/T04E turbo from Leiderschrichten Tuning. It runs 20.5psi of boost and uses a modified Audi S2 exhaust manifold with the fifth cylinder branch removed. The motor has custom made cams from CAT CAM which are 244in and 258ex, both with 10.95mm of valve lift. The head was modified by Bauer Motorsport of Nurnburg in Germany and uses 34/28.5mm enlarged valves. Mahle supplied the pistons which are 8.1:1 ratio and we had to modify them in-house as we had trouble with the wrist pins. We were not able to get the motor to run well with the Digifant III system so have chosen a system from Autronic in Australia, which is very good.

I am currently running the motor in on a base fuel and ignition map we programmed on the road so am yet to dyno tune it. I understand it will be good for around 300ps at the wheels.

I am not sure who in Holland supplied some VWM parts but we have a number of customers using VWM things here, but have never supplied the parts ourselves.

Thanks,

Hanse

[20v kit car]

hello Hanse ,there is two VWM mk3 golfs and two mk4 tarmac cars..also a mk1 which was developed with factory assistence. other than no17 kit car the second mk3 gti is a new body shell and full components for group a rally.engine is std abf and 02a g/box with VWM LSD center which in it self quite compact....there you have it a new never driven mk3...has std gti running gear and a full SACHS adjustable suspension kit with external resivioirs..the famous mk1 golf is an xfactory car built in australia in 1976 when we had a local plant...golfs were assembled for 1 year in melbourne.this car runs 165hp from 1600 with bmw mechanical pump running from the camshaft sprocket..4 trumpets very close to the fire wall and WOW it barks loud..the cam is Oettinger from many years ago with full bilstien and many choice spring settings.runs hard to about 8000 and sounds like a M3 at full noise. gearbox is a ratio 4sp with a very early style quaife diff center which works your arms..torque steer of the 70's . this vechile run between 76-80 during our famous Bathurst race circut with mixed results...the 4sp really limited the potential as it revved its guts out over 160kmph with 13in wheels on 3 piece bbs with slicks. thanks for your interest and it good to let the world know we may be a long way from anywhere but still have a finger in the golf pie..cheers steve ps what is the name of your buisness and what do you speacialize in ?

[ausgolfer]

Hey people, just joined the forum. Have been on the UK Club Gti forum for a few years now, I've learnt heaps from them.
I have an 89 Gti 16v specially ordered right hand drive in Germany then imported to Australia, so it's the euro spec engine. The car is very quick for the engine being standard. I recorded a 7.5 seconds to 100 on a friends G-tech meter. It's a very smooth motor and while being responsive low down is a little peaky up top. The revs build so quickly when you get about 4.5-5 grand, below that it's pretty similar to an 8v Gti.
But the time has come for more, and soon I'll be able to tell you if there is much of a difference between KR and ABF engines(in drivability), as I'm doing the swap. I'm keeping the inlet and exhaust manifolds and using the K-Jet injection. According to the Club Gti forum the digifant(digipants) injection on the ABF motors(in seat and mk3 Gti) is a little restrictive, but can be chipped. And when coupled with the K-Jet and making sure the small adjustments on the K-jet system are working properly I should expect closer to 170 horses compared to the 150 std.
I've had my car RR tested before and got 100hp at the wheels. Will be interesting to see what it gets after as all the parts will still be std. vw stuff.
My ABF motor has come from a uk mk3 Gti not an aussie seat, cost me $1000 for the motor, gearbox, manifolds, and loom, then a further $1000 for the import.
I am using a VR6 subframe to drop the motor a little lower as to avoid these bonnet clearance issues(only in a mk2).
According to both people in the UK and one guy from Tas who was putting an ABF into a mk1 there are no clearance issues, but I don't know this first hand.
Sorry for the long first post. But hello again. :P

[20v kit car]

welcome ausgolfer to the abf bretheren...very keen to hear how your results turn out....sounds like you are going for smoothness and reliability which makes a lot of sense espeacially with a road car..great to hear there are more people getting invovled with new and fresh ideas cheers steve

[ausgolfer]

Yeah we'll see how it goes when it's in. Thanks for the welcome.
The extra capacity will really help with the low down pull.
From what I've heard there's not a lot of point changing the cams in a ABF or KR engine, and most that have done so usually end up putting the standard cams back in. Unless you are building a full on race car, the only worthwhile cam mod I've heard on a KR of ABF is the twin exhaust cam mod where you modify a KR or ABF exhaust cam and put it in place of the inlet camshaft (because the exhaust cams are slightly wilder than the inlets).
Who knows, maybe a supercharger would be next on the agenda. If you put an ABF or KR cylinder head on a 2L 8v engine block(code 2E or ABA in states) you get a compression ratio of around 8 to 1. You need to swap over the oil pump drives and intermediate shafts etc. Also you'd have to get a pocket cut into the pistions for valve clearance. But I'm certainly thinking about it.
I have an old pair of KR cams sitting in the garage I could do something with. So many bits, not enough money.

[GoLfMan]

welcome ausgolfer!!! good to see i finally have another melbournian on site... 8)

[DOHCDAVE]

Welcome ausgolfer, old set of kr cams lying about you say 8) , i've a 1.8 16v PL prefix motor in my mk1 still trying to figure out problems with running the bloody thing but was wondering would you be interested inselling the cams as the motor i've got produces 123 hp and i would like to take that upto the KR stats. If not no stress would love to check out your cars as i'll be in melbourne in october for the weekend and would also like to catch up with some of the other members that live there also. Be good to put some faces to the names that i see in the forum.

Guys still trying to post pics of the alt bracket some of you asked for in parts for sale. For the new guys i fabricated a bracket for the my 16v from an old one off i think a 1600 and made it fit comfy away from the inlet/m. Got one photo uploaded but can't figure out how to show it in my post so that it's active when you put the mouse over it. Any suggestions?
And welcome again ausgolfer, the sites word is getting around and it's growing every day which is good to see as i know i've told countless numbers of late mod watercooled owners up here in QLD about the site and look frward to chating with all of them.
Bye for now

_______________________
:twisted: MK1 THE BEST :twisted:

76 MK1 16v

[GoLfMan]

go to the user tips mate...

the site is xs.to and when u upload you go to codes and thumbnails and u grab the forum code from memory... and copy paste onto you post and a thumbnail loads up.
simple
:)

[VanKronenburg]

what is the name of your buisness and what do you speacialize in ?

Hello Steve, as my username suggests, we are Van Kronenburg situated in Geldrop. We specialise in Volkswagen group, BMW and Opel race car and motor preparation. You may browse our website, which is www.vankronenburg.nl and is in English!

Thanks! Hanse