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adzify106
06-01-2015, 08:07 PM
Hi All,

Second post to the forums, been doing lots of reading and hoping some of you kind people might be able to give me some advice. Bought this Passat off my old man who had no issues with it and it had just come out of it's warranty period. Had nothing but problems unfortunately which VW keep charging an arm and a leg to get fixed - if it keeps going the way it is I'm just going to have to sell it off :facepalm:

Had a service on it (2008 Passat TDI DSG) about 6 months ago, noticed it was having some issues starting (would fire/turn over) but would splutter out, then on second attempt would start fine. Asked the guys at Peninsula VW to check the Battery and see if that was causing the issues, they finished the service and they said the battery was fine.
Next week the issue happened twice so went to local batt. shop and sure enough they said it had low voltage or similar and this was causing the problems in the ignition process. At the time I thought the guy was prob just after a sale and if VW checked it then surely they would have checked it to their standards required for starting, so I put off replacing it.

Now in the past 2-3 weeks the issue has been happening LOTS, enough to concern me whether it is actually going to start or not. I'll put the key in first-stage, second stage (elec fires up, glow plug lamp goes out) then ignition and nothing sometimes 3-4 times. Take keys completely out wait 20secs or so and then try again and it starts.

Last week when I had some issues starting something different happened, on the first attempt I heard 3 or 4 loud-long beeps (definitely not the faint warning/courtesy tones). I got no messages or error on the dash though and on subsequent firing attempts heard no more warning beeps of any sort.

With a bit of research I found this:
http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/f27/b6-125tdi-passat-3-high-pitched-beeps-when-starting-car-77962.html
And this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxLxtyCXAbc (Only pay attention to the first 10 seconds of the video, this is exactly what my car is doing but multiple times before it successfully starts - I have not experienced the problems/warning indicators he received further on in the video). From the looks of the video looks like his Injector seals have gone.

I have no idea if those beeps are related to the firing issue.

So now coming into summer and going back to work (firefighter) I am concerned that my car is going to leave me stranded somewhere so I took it back to Peninsula VW and told them of the issue. They had it for several hours today and did some 'testing' and have come back, with... surprise surprise Battery needs to be replaced.

1. Can't understand what the difference between the battery test they (and the local battery shop) did back then and how that could be so different to now. How would their battery tests compare to the test done at a dedicated battery shop?
2. Is it definitely a battery issue or could it be an injector problem or other issue and would they have tested for this?
3. The car is out of warranty and they want $372 just for the 'testing' they have done so far to determine its a bad battery and a further $287.65 to replace and fit new battery.

If anyone has any thoughts or suggestions as to what to do now I'd be interested to hear them, I appreciate your time.

All the best,

Adam

PS If you need any other info please let me know, happy to oblige.

Umai Naa!!
06-01-2015, 08:27 PM
Do you hear the Electronic Steering Column Lock engage and disengage EVERYTIME you insert and withdraw the key?

Check that, and report back. If you only hear it on the times that it actually starts, I'd say that's where your problem lies.

snerlo
06-01-2015, 08:32 PM
Mate, my old man had an issue with his Audi Q7 TDI not starting. It would sit on the starter motor for sometimes 15 seconds before she would fire up. Audi said the same thing as what youre describing above. After numerous dealership visits, and a new battery, the issue was simply solved by replacing the starter motor. Although the starter motor sounded fine there was something involved with a lack of voltage or something like that. Anyhow, check the starter motor mate. If you have had the battery replaced already, it obviously cant be that. My old mans Audi then started fine after the new starter motor was installed.

adzify106
06-01-2015, 09:00 PM
Thanks for the reply fellas.
Umai Naa!! (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/members/umai-naa-/) the car is still down at VW I'm wondering what to do whether I push them to check the injectors etc. When you say check the Electronic Steering Column Lock that can actually cause problems with the car starting? I could understand it throwing up an error or warning lamp but to actually cause the car to fire and then just stop seems really strange. But i'll keep it in mind when I get it back.

snerlo (http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/members/snerlo/) thanks for the suggestion funny VW haven't even mentioned the starter at all. read somewhere else the fuel pump has also caused similar issues. But you would think taking it back to VW and forking out a heap of cash they would be able to figure the issue out.

I'm wondering what guarantee VW give for the diagnostics and investigation, would be pretty average to pay $659 for all this testing and new battery only for the issue to persist if you know what I mean.

JB's Dub
07-01-2015, 10:31 AM
Ahh, Peninsula VW. Lol.

My Passat does it, its pretty common on these to do it. Mine has a non gen battery and while it tests ok, its at the lower end of ok, if that makes sence. These engines need to see atleast 280 RPM when cranking to get a good clean start. Over the years I have seen poor earth connections at the starter and at the body cause this issue and a worn starter will do it also.

They need to do a voltage drop test while the car is crankng to see if there is an issue with any of the battery cables and earth points.

Then a current draw test on the starter while cranking will show a poor starter.

I will go back to a new genuine battery and assess it from there.

adzify106
07-01-2015, 11:02 AM
Cheers, JB - one would hope for $372 in diagnostics they would have done the testing you have suggested :)

Appreciate the suggestions.. Interesting to hear at this point no one thinks injectors could be playing a role in the issue. I have been reading that there have been some faults with them and recalls etc?

JB's Dub
07-01-2015, 02:01 PM
The issue with the Injectors was the electronic solenoid in the injector short circuits killing the power supply to the injectors. When they die the engine cuts out and will not re-start.

adzify106
11-01-2015, 10:39 AM
Ok thanks JB!

Also thanks to everyone else for their help, they checked the cables and earth - found no problems. Did a draw test on the starter and it was below the amount of RPM required. Put in a new battery and it is just above (by about 70-80RPM according to the tech) what is required now, so that could indicate starter is on the way out. It has started first time, every time since the new battery and it even sounds different firing, quicker like a petrol engine as opposed to to the original very chuggy diesel type start (must have been trying very hard of the old battery). Considering VW have put sensors in for almost everything else I'm so surprised that they wouldn't put one in for such a crucial piece of equipment. Anyway fingers crossed!

dero
21-01-2015, 11:40 AM
I had a problem with my B7 last year and it sounds a little like the description you've given.

My B7 is the TDI and it comes with the BlueMotion Stop/Start. A while back with the car coming to a halt at the lights the engine cut out and on restart, I would end up stalling. The starter motor turned and the engine attempted to fire but after what felt like the 4-5 revolutions the ignition sequence completes and the engine stalled. After a few attempts at a key-out-in restart it went and I was able to get going.

Multiple trips to and from the dealership finally found the problem. There was a weak point in one of the coils in the starter motor and the weaker point in the rotation meant the RPM of the starter motor wasn't going as high as it needed to be in order to get the engine to start. A weaker point in the motor also meant that the starter was creating a higher draw current against the battery in order to get the start sequence going.

Often on the start, the rotation of the starter motor ended up with the motor falling back into the same problem position thus the reason why you needed a few restart attempts because it enabled the starter motor to not be in the bad/weak point position. Taking the key out and waiting a bit to get the engine be able to start is more a symptom of letting the battery have some opportunity to build up a capacitance charge and amperage to be able to drive the starter motor the required RPM for the engine to start.

All was rectified with a replacement starter motor and battery. Starter motor for the obvious issue of removal of the weak point slowing up the potential RPM available for starting. Battery because the higher stress loads needed to get the faulty starter motor stressed the battery up weakened the battery overall and reduced its capacity for charge and total amperage output.

This problem was not detectable by the VW guided fault finding system because none of the actual components were actually broken - they were just sort of weak.

I'm hoping I've explained it well enough for you that you can take it to VW and have the service guy understand it.

DaSkwurl
26-04-2015, 06:09 PM
I've just noticed something similar happening when I start my Passat, only intermittently though.
She's still within the 3month warranty so I might bring this up.

very much appreciated!

Umai Naa!!
26-04-2015, 08:10 PM
Get it sorted, before you end up stranded somewhere.

DaSkwurl
27-04-2015, 10:05 PM
I'll be visiting them tomorrow!

cru22z
18-06-2015, 03:38 PM
My wife just got stranded for 5 minutes due to car failing to restart after the start/stop sequence. She managed to get it start after 5 minutes. Did you guys figure out the problem??