Biodiesel

[flightlessbird]

Why isnt biodiesel recomended for the current golf diesel engines?

[syncro]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2006/05/biogunk-1.jpg

[imported_brackie]

I should've put a copyright on that pic, syncro :wink:
That fuel filter came out of my Pug 505 SRDT when I did the first filter change after I bought it. Not long after that I had to replace the fuel tank, filler neck and cap as they were so badly corroded. The tank leaked like a sieve. The moral of the story is that you have to make biodiesel meticulously and that's why I'm not attempting it. At present I'm putting together a twin tank conversion so that I can run on poppy seed oil. I'll update when here's progress (after I get this bl**dy new forum software to work :twisted: )

[syncro]

I should've put a copyright on that pic, syncro :wink:


I love it! :mrgreen:

VW designed engines to run on diesel not fish & chip shop waste!
VW designed engines to run on petrol not compost (ethanol)!

[flightlessbird]

they now have plastic tanks so corrosiom should not be an issue and the old fashioned lucas/cav filter water trap looked at reguarly should look after the other issue

[peter_j_g]

Biodiesel isn't recommended for the Pumpe-Duse type diesel engines, as the tolerances in the individual injector pumps are extremely fine. The older TDi engines are OK. The owners manual for my 99 Tdi passat specifically mentions that it is OK to use biodiesel to RME specification. One of the resons for buying a VE pump car rather than a PD type car was so that I could use biodiesel. You still have to keep a close eye on the filters though...

[imported_brackie]

http://www.vwwatercooled.com.au/forums/images/imported/2006/05/biogunk-1.jpg
The 505 SRDT has a water trap built into the filter. My tractors are similar, albeit with 2 filters. The gunk that you see built up in a matter of 100km. I changed the twin filters on my Inter 574 tractor yesterday and they were clean as...
I guess what I'm saying is that B100 is OK as long as it's washed properly. (Illegally) I regularly tip a couple of litres of canola into my tank to improve the lubricity of the petrodiesel and so preserve injection pump seals. Can't be too careful in these days of ULSD.

[gldgti]

VW designed engines to run on diesel not fish & chip shop waste!
VW designed engines to run on petrol not compost (ethanol)!

its true...

its definately not something that should stop you though.

theres a small victory for the environment in every litre of biodiesel burned, and damn the consequences...

thats what i say anyway.

my diesel was made to run on "petrolium derived diesel fuel oil", however it is a simple matter to optimise it to be used with more environmentally friendly methyl esters - thus the world gets closer to a green future.

[hiho]

"The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today. But such oils may become in the course of time as important as the petroleum and coal tar products of the present time"
Rudolph Diesel, 1912

Peanut (oil)

Seriously though, Im making washed, neutral pH biodiesel and altough its a bit harder to start on a cold morning and ive had to replace the cheap pre fuel filter i had installed ($3), are there any other issues with running a GLD on Biodiesl?

Thanks [/quote]

[imported_brackie]

The very first diesel prototypes ran on coal dust. In coal mines this is known as "black damp" and is highly explosive.

A diesel engine can run on almost any hydrocarbon fuel, the trick is to get it into a form that is suitable for the sophisticated injection gear of a modern diesel engine. I think my pic of the contents of my Pug's fuel filter shows that you can get it wrong! (By the way, it was the former owner that ran it on biodiesel, not me :wink: )

Biodiesel and SVO swell rubber (and synthetic rubber) seals, of that there's no doubt, and greatly increase the lubricity of the fuel. Plenty of diesel owners who were suffering from injection pump leaks due the seal-shrinking effects of ULSD have turned to biodiesel and solved the problem in one. I put canola oil in my tank(s) for that very reason.

BUT IF YOU'RE MAKING BIODIESEL YOU HAVE TO ENSURE THAT IT'S DONE PROPERLY!!!!

[Edison]

ULSD
Huh? wots that?

[Golf Loon]

Low Sulphur Diesel?

[imported_brackie]

Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel. It's Euro 4 standard. Nice to the environment but destroys injection pump seals by shrinking them.

[GoLfMan]

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html
here you go guys. heres some info on bio diesel and how to make it and the like. hope it helps.

[flightlessbird]

Some interesting answers there, know to baffle and confuse the 'experts' at VGA

[gldgti]

dads been running his washed bio for about 3 yrs now. (1500 ve pump)

he's replaced a few seals in the injector pump with viton (very scary stuff, if you read up on it, but excellent for IP seals when running ANY fuels). the seals have cost in the $2 range....

a fuel filter now and then.... the clear ones from supacheap are the go.

replaces the rubber lines with synthetic. he's tried quite a few different ones. PVC is good but goes hard over time..... there are many types... pirtek has a lot of different type of fuel tubing, as do performance car places....

none of this stuff is expencive or hard to do.

no issues as yet, and i think dads done about 120K on homemade b100 so far...:-)

[imported_brackie]

dads been running his washed bio for about 3 yrs now. (1500 ve pump)

It's proper washing that's the key to problem-free biodiesel.


he's replaced a few seals in the injector pump with viton (very scary stuff, if you read up on it, but excellent for IP seals when running ANY fuels). the seals have cost in the $2 range....

Viton's the way to go. To my knowledge all modern injection pumps use viton seals. Did he replace them himself? Not many people have the courage to do it.


a fuel filter now and then.... the clear ones from supacheap are the go.

They'll remove big gunk but it would pay to install a trap before the main fuel filter. Peter j_g installed one on my red diesel and it was a wise move.


replaces the rubber lines with synthetic. he's tried quite a few different ones. PVC is good but goes hard over time..... there are many types... pirtek has a lot of different type of fuel tubing, as do performance car places....

Apparently the swelling effect of the biodiesel can restrict flow. I've even heard of pieces of rubber (in old hoses) breaking fee and being filtered out. Erosion?


none of this stuff is expensive or hard to do.

no issues as yet, and i think dads done about 120K on homemade b100 so far...:-)

Excellent. Done properly biofuels will help us survive the oil crash. (Coming soon!) Even Honest John Howard admitted it in his beat up of the nuclear issue. It's scary when the pollies are admitting we've passed "Peak Oil". :evil:

[hiho]

Thanks for the detailed reply GtiGld and Brackie,

I replaced the glow plugs yesterday and this morning the car started!! I tested the old plugs and 1 was faulty. Enough to require a roll start down the nearest hill every morning. My neighbours must think that im nuts.

Next on the list is to roadwothy the 2 GLD's that cost $125 each (and they look it too). We will register one and sell the other. One needs a replacement short motor (which we have) and the other needs a head gasket (and hopefully not a new head)

Also I am planning a WVO conversion as we have excellent access to top quality used oil. THis will reduce the need to process all the oil we recieve. Will still use BD in the main thank though.

I just love these cars!!

[gldgti]

hi again...

to answer the question about the viton seals...

yes, dad has done it himself. he was a little worried to begin wih but got hold of some schematic data on the pump from somewhere i think, and had no trouble pulling it apart and replacing the seals himself.... as yet, i've not done it to my pump, mainly becuase i dont use bio all the time - about every 3rd tank.

about the filters...

a neat trrick that i think i've invented with those clear supacheap filters is to install two of them in parallel - this significantly decreases the flow rate through the filters and so i find that 1) the filters trap water and other sediment that might normally go through them in the bottom and 2) as a result they stay largly very clean, for longer.

my tank had quite a large amount of rubbish in it to begin with, and i found that for a while, having a sinlge filter installed would see me having fuelling issies after sometimes only 500km.... i switched to two filters and i could go many thousands of km without touching them.

i'd even reccommend it to people not using bio - the cleaner your fuel, the better!

[gldgti]

http://images4.pictiger.com/thumbs/36/d9fc6df6786848a3cc487b3d8876fa36.th.jpg (http://server4.pictiger.com/img/272494//engine-bay-1.php)

my 2 filters (left) just before replaceing them.

note - the pvc is a worthwhile modification! (air tubing that is!)

[imported_brackie]

Here's a pic of the setup that peter j_g put in the red diesel.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/mundy/vw/filters.jpg

If I were running on home made biodiesel it would be the minimum I would accept.

[brackie]

This is a test

[GoLfMan]

but if you are careful with your homemade bio-diesel and wash it properly it should be alright? keeping it in an airtight container also helps does it not?

[Edison]

Golfman : but if you are careful with your homemade bio-diesel and wash it properly it should be alright? keeping it in an airtight container also helps does it not?

I don't know, but I know it would be foolish not to try, the savings made by alternate fuels far outweigh the cost of anything it might wear out. Spending thousands of dollars on premium petrol to protect a $0.50c rubber hose in the engine has always struck me as false economy. Despite the best efforts of the oil co advertising.

[smithy010]

I've heard from my fairly extensive research on biodiesel, that biodiesel acts as a cleaning product for all the gunge buildup from when you used petro diesel in you vehicle. It tends to make sense, since petro diesel is often extremely dirty and contains water- use of a diesel for ages would lead to rust and other buildup in the fuel system. If you use clean biodiesel (which is great for your engine), you will still get gunge and crap in your fuel filters for, i would estimate, probably the first half a dozen tanks full.

I haven't tested this theory, but i've heard it said on a couple of biodiesel sites.

I plan to weld up a Stainless steel fuel tank for my conversion. When i finally find a diesel engine.

Smithy

[GoLfMan]

smity... try and find a 1.9TDi and gearbox out of the mk4. if you stuffed one of these into a mk1 it would seriously fly... even better get a mk5 2.0TDi direct injection!!! talk to loon about importing engines he should know if you could source one of those :)

[syncro]

smity... try and find a 1.9TDi and gearbox out of the mk4. if you stuffed one of these into a mk1 it would seriously fly... even better get a mk5 2.0TDi direct injection!!! talk to loon about importing engines he should know if you could source one of those :)

Find out about the immobiliser first.

[Golf Loon]

Yeah or build your own loom and go aftermarket.

[syncro]

It's not the loom but the computer and the key must match.
I've seen a lot of van conversions with a key in the engine bay.

[smithy010]

Hmmmm, a Mk5 tdi- great if i had the cash.

For anyone planning on doing a custom (non VW) conversion, remember if the engine mounts are not oem, you will be smacked for an extra $500 engineers certificate.

[peter_j_g]

No need to have a key in the engine bay! You can use vagcom to tell the ecu about the keys you are going to use. However you do need the SKC (Secret Key Code) that belongs to each key, this is the number that you enter into the ecu.

[syncro]

And where do you plug the Vagcom in?

I don't think that Vagcom can code a Golf 1/2 key.

[peter_j_g]

I thought the context was about a golf 4 TDi engine, so if you transplant this into a mk1 complete with loom you would have the diagnostic plug and electronic key. Sorry for any confusion... mk1 & 2 golfs don't have electronic keys and immobilizers (at least the ones I've owned!)

[syncro]

I thought the context was about a golf 4 TDi engine, so if you transplant this into a mk1 complete with loom you would have the diagnostic plug and electronic key. Sorry for any confusion... mk1 & 2 golfs don't have electronic keys and immobilizers (at least the ones I've owned!)
That's why they put the key elsewhere.

[smithy010]

I decided the diesel forum was looking a bit quiet.

So i decided to post the progress of my biodiesel project.
I'm working on a baby biodiesel reactor vessel, made from a 50l beer keg. I welded up some beautiful stainless steel washing machine motor brackets for the side of it yesterday. I love tig welding!

I think my biggest problem at the moment is trying to source oil. Did anyone on biodiesel have problems with that?

[GoLfMan]

go to maccas :) they should sell you their waste oil?

[syncro]

go to maccas :) they should sell you their waste oil?

They don't have waste oil, they put it in the burgers & fries:o

[smithy010]

I don't wanna buy it!

I should be able to get it for free somewhere, surely. I'm going to walk the f/c shops and see who'll give me some.

Maccas oil would be a last resort- can you imagine the amount of crap that would be in that oil?

Yuck!

[syncro]

Maccas oil would be a last resort- can you imagine the amount of crap that would be in that oil?

Yuck!

No, that's the bit that they sell in the fries!

[brackie]

The vast majority of the problems caused by bd use are because people use (usually free) waste oil. This contains all sorts of nasties that must not enter your fuel system. The worst of them is good old water. If you're going to use waste oil then it has to be thoroughly cleaned before esterisation and washed afterward. When time permits and I get down to manufacturing my own it'll be made from virgin oil. I can get poppy seed oil, centrifuged and filtered, for 70c/L and canola for 80c/L. All up cost per litre shouldn't be more than 90c/L.
Also, don't forget that bd will scour out any dirt, bacterial matter and perished rubber in your fuel system. Excellent filtration is essential.

[smithy010]

Very True, all that brackie says.

I think that you should probably add about 25c/l onto the cost of the oil for methanol cost. (That's at current methanol prices).

There are ways and means of purifying the used oil before esterification. 25c/l fuel has got to be better than 90c/l. This taken into account, i will have to be very careful with using used oil, and only use good quality used oil (if there is such a thing).
The main worry is water. Other muck simply drops out in the glycerine layer. If the biodiesel is carefully washed and dried before use, there should be no problems.

I don't intend to use virgin oil at all- partly because there is little gain in reducing fuel costs by 60c/l, when you add your (precious) time, electricity, and fuss, not to mention the risk involved.

[GoLfMan]

i find the process of making bio diesel facinating, i would like to try it one day... Smithy can you please post a photo diary of the process of making bio diesel please?
cheers :)

[smithy010]

When i get it moving, i'll definitely do that.

[smithy010]

Ok, a tiny bit of progress, but in real terms it's a big step.

I got my first 30l haul of used fish and chip oil the other day. The bloke was more than happy to give it to me, and the bonus is that it came straight out of the fryer, so i can be pretty well sure that it is dry... well, kind of- i know there is still a chance of water in combination.

I thought liasing with the owners would be more difficult than it actually was.

[Golf Loon]

Good work, he should be happy to give it to you, they have to pay to get rid of it.

[gldgti]

well done smithy, your doing us proud.

i have to get myself a processor built.... maybe its time.

[smithy010]

Actually, at first thought i thought they would pay to get rid of it too, but it turns out only a very backward fish/chip store owner would pay for oil removal.

Firstly there are the people who run supply/remove businesses- they supply new oil and remove the old stuff, so some of the market is wrapped up with that.

Other people simply take it away for free. The advantage they have over me, is they take lots of oil. I simply don't have the room or need to store hundreds of litres of oil. 30l of oil a week will probably do me, so i figured it would be difficult.

Several shops said a flat no to my requests,and by then i was surprised to see this guy be so upfront and helpful.

[smithy010]

well done smithy, your doing us proud.

i have to get myself a processor built.... maybe its time.


Gimme a week or two and i'll have pics of mine for you.

Doesn't your old man have one?