Used Touareg and tow bars

[Marakai]

Hello all,

It's been quite a while since I'd been posting over on the Passat forum. We're now starting to look into adding a used Touareg to the collection, as our horse float tower. Fellow riders have commented on how fantastic the T is for floats, with a near perfect torque at the RPM where you'd want it when towing heavy live animals.

However, I'm a bit surprised to see just how few used Touaregs already have a tow bar! At first I thought it's because too many of them are for the wifey-poo and the kids to drive around the burbs in their suburban tank. Then I did some searching and some posts on various forums talk about it being the avoidance of the bloody LCT: that just the adding in of the tow bar will drive the price over the threshold and suddenly that fairly small item will cost you 20-30% of the *total* price extra.

Is that true? Or just one of those old wives' tales about the horrors of LCT?

If it is the case, is it better/cheaper to look for a used T without the bar and then have it installed afterwards?

If so, are there recommendations for a) brands suitable for 2.5t loaded horse float and b) shops that do high quality work to put them in?

Thanks!
Mike

[Flipper Dog]

Hi Mike,
The wives tales are singing loud in your side of town. LCT is only payable on new cars or if you happen to purchase a 2nd hand one worth more than the original price. The first buyer only pays LCT.
The Touareg when new was well over the LCT mark so the addition of a $2000 towbar package didn't make that much difference, you could say the same with sunroof, metallic paint or option packs.
If you are looking 2nd hand than getting a deal with a towbar fitted is not going to cost you any more that getting it done later.
There are some options with the towbar, VW or after market. The after market is a few hundred dollars cheaper but expect to pay between $1500 to $2000 all up (electrics, towbar and fitting) as a guide.
In any case get VW to code your electrics (and I suggest fit them) as problems will arise with aftermarket installers playing around with it. The actual towbar is only bolted on but the rear bumper needs removing to fit.

[Marakai]

Thanks, Flipper. Yeah, I couldn't wrap my head around why a towbar would effect the bump into LCT territory, but something like a sunroof or memory seat packages wouldn't. Ah, posts on the Internet, always such a fun study in human contradictions... (and lack of maths ;-).

So, in the end, when comparing T's on the used car market, I'll just mentally budget another $2500 for a proper VW install job if the vehicle doesn't already have it - and if it does, clarify whether it's a VW or non-VW install job. With preference for the former.

I suppose I could go so far as choosing one without over one with, as you never know if the former owner actually had a clue about "proper" towing and therefore, for instance, the transmission may be in worse shape.

Thanks again!

[FJ Steve]

as a pre-delivery/asset manager (in a former life) for a VW dealership,I can inform you that towbar installs were generally done by the in-house techs.

HOWEVER.

The wiring (including installation of other such elektroniktrickery - parking sensors, reverse cameras etc) were done by an outside contractor in our facility. Full VW warranty was (allegedly) provided, and the customer believed they were being fitted by one of our techs. However, at 9approx) $160 per hour...far cheaper to get an outside speciliast to do the job.

FWIW...a T3 Touareg took 2 days to have towbar electronics, and RVC fitted to an existing RNS850 (together with in roof DVD system). BIG bucks on that job.

[Marakai]

Hello all,

It's taken quite a while but we finally found a good deal on a Touareg in good nick with towbar all installed.

Now, my only concern is the adapter:

While our Alltrack already has a 7-pin and there are no issues with the operation of our horse float (which we've also received in the meantime) with its 7-pin, to my surprise the Touareg has a 13-pin round plug. The guy selling it has a 13-to-7 pin adapter which is part of the deal, but I'm still concerned about any possible issues. With a float that holds live animals I don't want to take any risks.

I spoke with a VW Essendon, where we have our Alltrack from but who also happened to have serviced that Touareg, and they stated there should be no issues with lights of functioning of brakes.

Having seen here on the forums how often you get wrong or misleading info from dealers, I thought I'd rather ask the VWWC oracle of wisdo

[Hillbilly]

Why dont you get them to let you take it home and hook your float up to it and try it.

Seems the logical thing to do.

We could theorise all day and still be wrong in any specific vehicle.

Make it a condition of sale that it works with your gear. Just make sure the float is wired correctly before you start.

Here are the standard wiring diagrams for small and large round plugs and 7 flat

[Marakai]

Why dont you get them to let you take it home and hook your float up to it and try it.

Seems the logical thing to do.


Distance, largely. It's a significant drive one-way. Which turns into a notable time investment for something I would have thought is friggin' standardised. :-\

I feel like I'm time-warped into ye old RS232 days.



We could theorise all day and still be wrong in any specific vehicle.


Mind utterly blown. I feel like being told that just because it's shaped like a USB connector it might not actually work on your PC. >.<




Here are the standard wiring diagrams for small and large round plugs and 7 flat

Thanks for those. I checked with the float dealer (who is close by) and fortunately we should be in luck: it's a German float so has all the right wirings, but was simply changed from the German standard 13pin to a 7flat. So, now we're patching it back...

[logger]

I checked with the float dealer (who is close by) and fortunately we should be in luck: it's a German float so has all the right wirings, but was simply changed from the German standard 13pin to a 7flat. So, now we're patching it back...
That's good. One of our two floats is from the UK so set up for Europe too. It has a round plug whereas the local built float the 7 pin flat plug. Both floats lights work fine on our two cars. British float needs an adaptor fitted that's all as the cars are 7 flat.

I am curious though, does your float have electric brakes? Just that it would appear that in Europe it is acceptable to have override trailer brakes at weights considerably over the 2 ton ADR limit.

[Hillbilly]

Distance, largely. It's a significant drive one-way. Which turns into a notable time investment for something I would have thought is friggin' standardised. :-\

I feel like I'm time-warped into ye old RS232 days.



Mind utterly blown. I feel like being told that just because it's shaped like a USB connector it might not actually work on your PC. >.<
.
What I meant was that with a used vehicle there is the possibility of the previous owner altering things from standard.

Like having Aux power on pin 2 instead of reversing lights or some other things.

Have seen lots of vanners who hook up and things go wrong like blinkers connected in opposite order, brake lights that dont work.

[Marakai]

I am curious though, does your float have electric brakes? Just that it would appear that in Europe it is acceptable to have override trailer brakes at weights considerably over the 2 ton ADR limit.

Float does have electric brakes.

As for your other post: from what I've been told, the entire setup was VW factory/dealer setup without any further modifications. He never had any problems, however his trailer (for towing racecars, I understand) had hydraulic brakes.

[Marakai]

Hi all,

It's now been two months. We ended up buying the Touareg (dealth the previous owner down a bit more and got a really good deal over all). Are very happy with the car.

One point of confusion, though, remains: The whole electric brake complex.

The previous owner only ever towed trailers with hydraulic brakes. So he never had anything like a brake control unit installed. With the horse float having electric brakes, I'm totally confused: do we need such an extra unit or does a Touareg have one built in?

The reason I'm confused is that I've never heard of anybody in Germany (whence I come) installing such a thing, where a Touareg/Boeckmann combo is almost natural for transporting horses.

Have we been playing Russian Roulette and just *thought* the brakes are working when really, there's only the weight of the car keeping thing in check?! Or is there a default braking action being passed through the cable to the brakes and we are merely missing the "fine control" the unit provides?

Slightly worried now...

[Hillbilly]

Yes you will need a brake controller. Don't know of any vehicles that have them built in. If his trailer had hydraulics he would have needed some sort of controller as well as you cant hook trailer and car brake hydraulics together.

A Tekonsha Prodigy or a P3 would be the best models although a Redarc Tow Pro is gaining popularity due to its small size.
Are easy to fit but care needs to be taken in a VW as to where you take the power from. A spare fuse socket is best and unit must have an 20amp auto reset circuit breaker in the power line NOT A FUSE.

[Marakai]

Thanks, Hillbilly.

I had already narrowed down to the Tekonsha or the Redarc TP. The latter is also priced attractively.

Is this a DYI job or does it need a pro?

Speaking to the previous owner he was adamant he had never put any sort of controller in. Arguably illegal? Oh well, water under a bridge...


Yes you will need a brake controller. Don't know of any vehicles that have them built in. If his trailer had hydraulics he would have needed some sort of controller as well as you cant hook trailer and car brake hydraulics together.

A Tekonsha Prodigy or a P3 would be the best models although a Redarc Tow Pro is gaining popularity due to its small size.
Are easy to fit but care needs to be taken in a VW as to where you take the power from. A spare fuse socket is best and unit must have an 20amp auto reset circuit breaker in the power line NOT A FUSE.

[Hillbilly]

Thanks, Hillbilly.

I had already narrowed down to the Tekonsha or the Redarc TP. The latter is also priced attractively.

Is this a DYI job or does it need a pro?
Speaking to the previous owner he was adamant he had never put any sort of controller in. Arguably illegal? Oh well, water under a bridge...


Its only 4 wires but they need to be done properly If you havent an idea of how its done it may be cheaper to get a pro or someone who knows rather than have a cloud of smoke LOL

Just make sure if you buy a Redarc its A TOW PRO not th eold crap model as there is a vast difference in operation and efficiency

[Marakai]

Its only 4 wires but they need to be done properly If you havent an idea of how its done it may be cheaper to get a pro or someone who knows rather than have a cloud of smoke LOL

Just make sure if you buy a Redarc its A TOW PRO not th eold crap model as there is a vast difference in operation and efficiency

This one:

Tow-Pro™ Electric Trailer Brake Controller - REDARC (http://www.redarc.com.au/products/product/tow-pro/)

[Hillbilly]

Thats the one but available for a lot less than that if you look around

https://www.autoelec.com.au/ssl/public_autoelec/store_v4/product_detail.asp?id=2573&cat=217

OR Tekonsha P3 Prodigy Caravan Trailer Electric Brake Controller Brackets AND Loom | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TEKONSHA-P3-PRODIGY-CARAVAN-TRAILER-ELECTRIC-BRAKE-CONTROLLER-BRACKETS-AND-LOOM-/321636879050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4ae30d4aca)

[Marakai]

Thats the one but available for a lot less than that if you look around

https://www.autoelec.com.au/ssl/public_autoelec/store_v4/product_detail.asp?id=2573&cat=217

OR Tekonsha P3 Prodigy Caravan Trailer Electric Brake Controller Brackets AND Loom | eBay (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TEKONSHA-P3-PRODIGY-CARAVAN-TRAILER-ELECTRIC-BRAKE-CONTROLLER-BRACKETS-AND-LOOM-/321636879050?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item4ae30d4aca)

Excellent thanks! What I like about the Redarc is that it's a nice simple control that can be nicely integrated into the Touareg dash. I wouldn't know where to put the Tekonsha without it "sticking out" or taking up some other spot. I definitely don't want it under the steering wheel or somewhere where our longs legs collide with it (we're both >6').

[logger]

...
The previous owner only ever towed trailers with hydraulic brakes. So he never had anything like a brake control unit installed. With the horse float having electric brakes, I'm totally confused: do we need such an extra unit or does a Touareg have one built in?

The reason I'm confused is that I've never heard of anybody in Germany (whence I come) installing such a thing, where a Touareg/Boeckmann combo is almost natural for transporting horses.

Marakai, the common terminology (hydraulic vs electronic brakes) used in Australia is misleading and leads to this confusion. Whilst the previous owner of your Touareg had hydraulically operated brakes, their system was activated by over-run. Car slows down, trailer over-runs car, compressing hitch, mechanically activating hydraulically operated brakes. You can also get cable operated over-run brakes. Our UK built Nugent float has this non hydraulic over-run system and I suspect this is how the Boeckmanns work too.

The rarity of what we term "electric brake" systems on floats in Germany is likely because EU allow up to 2.5 ton with the over-run system.

In Australia Over-run brakes may only be used on trailers that do not exceed 2 tons. Above 2 tons the brakes must be operable from the drivers seat, hence the requirement for an electronic brake controller to satisfy this.

To confuse things further you can also get electric, pneumatic or even hydraulically operated, "electric brake" systems!

The way I see it - the key point to note is that the need for an after market electronic brake controller is dictated by how the trailer brakes are activated and not by the system they use to function, be it electric, pneumatic or hydraulic. Practically speaking a trailer braking system will will either be over-run or Electronically activated.

Everyone fits electric brakes, but you might as well be aware of this statement in the brochures and on the VW websites:
"Please note Volkswagen does not endorse or will not be held liable for any claim, loss or damage arising from the use or fitment of electronic trailer brakes"
Just means if you stack with the trailer on don't bother trying to sue VW.


Have we been playing Russian Roulette and just *thought* the brakes are working when really, there's only the weight of the car keeping thing in check? YES, just your cars brakes were stopping the lot. The float brakes were inactive.

We have two double horse floats fitted with over-run systems. One hydraulic the other cable. They work well.
Eventually we will upgrade to a heavier triple float. It will be over 2 ton so will require an electronic brake controller. until then out Touareg is doing a good job without it.

[Hillbilly]

here are the rules regarding brakes on Trailers

Trailers that do not exceed 750 kg GTM with a single axle
No brakes are required.

Note: Where a trailer has two axles where the centres are less than 1 metre apart are regarded as a
single axle.

All other trailers that do not exceed 4500 kg ATM

These trailers must be fitted with an efficient brake system that complies with ADR 38/-. Except
for over-run brakes, all brakes must be operable from the driver's seat of the towing vehicle.

For trailers up to 2000 kg GTM, an efficient braking system is considered to have brakes operating
on the wheels of at least one axle. Over-run brakes may only be used on trailers that do not exceed
2 tonnes GTM.
Every trailer over 2000 kg GTM must have brakes operating on all wheels. The brake system must
cause immediate application of the trailer brakes in the event of the trailer becoming detached
from the towing
vehicle. Under these circumstances, the brakes must remain applied for at least 15 minutes.

I would have thought a double horse float would be at least 2000kg GTM But I could be wrong


If as Logger says you have overrides you do NOT need a brake controller An override hitch looks like this

Tow Hitches - Towing Equipment (http://www.rvpartsexpress.com.au/towing-equipment/tow-hitches.html) The top row are standard hitches

The left one in the second row $102 is an overide hitch so have a look and see what the float actually has.

I presumed, perhaps falsely that the float would be over 2000KG and therefore would need a controller.

Maybe the packhorse that rolled on me only felt like a tonne and wasnt really. LOL

[logger]

It is common for a basic double horse float to weigh 850kg to 950kg. A Large horse such as a thoroughbred or warmblood can weigh 500 to 550 a piece. So up at the 2000KG limit but not necessarily over it. Many horse will come in under 500KG.
Our Nugent float is designed and certified in Europe to 2700KG with its over-run system, however until advised otherwise I treat is as 2000kg max.

The rules you are quoting are from the ADRs and whilst they are the rules, there are exceptions. For all I know the importer of my Nugent may have elected to have it certified as a "nonstandard" trailer. In which case they can go through a process to show the brake system is up to the task and have it certified to operate over-run brakes at the 2700kg in Australia too.

[Marakai]

Yikes. After verifying with the dealer and Boeckmann in Germany, we definitely do NOT have over-runs and DO have electronically activated brakes. I feel horrible on how that got away from me...

Going to order the Redarc from the link Hillbilly provided, but will let pros install it.

Anybody have a recommendation in the northern Melbourne and/or general Macedon Ranges area? I assume they would need to know the ins and outs of Touareg/VW electronics as to where exactly to hook things up, never mind install it so it doesn't look like an eye-sore?