Fitting rear seat in a T4 licensing stuff.

[posscakes]

I got a two seat rear seat (lap sash / lap belt) that I recently fit behind the drivers seat in my '03 t4 Its an oem vw seat that came out of another t4 along with the seat belt and bolts. So I've got it installed correctly as far as i know as in everything is married up to correct mount points and bolted in with high tensile automotive bolts and spreader plates underneath etc. So i took it down to the motor rego place hoping to get it passed, they gave the vehicle a full roadworthy inspection and defected it because of the seat and sent me off to get an engineers certificate. So i eventually tracked an engineer down and went and seen him today nice guy gave me some sound advice about making the installation stronger but ultimately asked why was i sent to him when the seat and the seat belt had been attached at all the correct points as per the design of the vehicle. The engineer was pretty familiar with transporters he had 2 t5s sitting in his yard tells me people bring them to him when they get modified for disability access. So my question is - Do i really need an engineers certificate? Have i modified the vehicle enough to warrant it? Its $600 to get some guy to give the engineer tick of approval though it will probably satisfy the bozos at the rego but still annoying. Anyway I got 28 days to clear a defect on my vehicle. I'm in the ACT.

[Kiels3927]

He, back a while, I bought a T4 with three rows of seats. When my son took it over & removed the back seat so he had more room for his band gear, we found we needed a certificate for that.

[ian]

It cost me $150 for a Blue plate for my Nissan Navara after i removed the bench seat and in stalled two buckets from the same model,
I did this in Sydney a few years ago and the yearly inspection just marked it on the inspection sheet That the vehicle had been changed from a 3 to a two seat
It was only when i moved to QLD did i run into trouble ,Even though my rego papers were stamped 2 seat capasity it wasnt good enough for the QLD Main Roads ,so thats when i had to get the Blue plate

[Sunny43.5]

I used to do certifications for over twenty years when I had my vehicle conversion shop on the Gold Coast . The main problem most people miss is that most standard Transporters will be classified under the category of NA which usually applies to any van delivered without rear seats . Now ADR rules allow conversions to these vehilces as long as certain standards are followed , for intance if you fit a rear 3 person seat into the van you are required to fit obviously all seat belts and also child restrain anchor points for up to three positions , also side windows may be required .
Now In Qld we only had to then fit a blue Compliance Plate and use our Certified Officers number and a description of the seating capacity changes ie two seater to five seater plus child anchor points as each mod has different ADR codes Child restraints LK6 seats and seat belts LK1 . In some cases if we were doing a major rejig like making a Toyota Commuter or Toyota Coaster into a luxury vehicle with aircraft like seats and various other mods we would then use an engineer to certify as there were alot of rules to adhere to . The other thing is that if you change the vehicle past a certain point from its original classification ie standard Transporter NA class into say an 8 seater you are then changing the vehicle into an MB class vehicle which is what a Caravelle would be , you then have to get an engineer to change the category . It used to be a nightmare as the rules could only be interpreted by an engineer as they were too high tech and complicated .
Now interesting what Kiels has said if you remove seats you have to do a change of the compliance plate ie the blue one for Qld or engineers certificate for other states . Ian's case is also another one as his vehicle was certified by an engineer in NSW but they don't require a new or additional compliance plate so when he transferred to Qld no plate no rego change simple as that , each state has different rules [probably why I gave up my certification certificate some years back ] One big thing that people often overlook is that whoever certifies a vehicle change ie seats etc they are legally responsible for the next 7 years if someone gets hurt and there is an insurance claim or death involved. That is why engineers charge so much not only for their knowledge but also their Public Liability Insurance .
We were caught up once in a court case as a vehicle we had fitted bucket seats into a HJ Holden ute bench seat to a pair of factory bucket seats was involved in a crash where a passenger was killed . We had to supply all relevant information as our modification plate was on the vehicle . Luckily it transpired that the cause of the crash was the ute had had disc brakes retro fitted and a mechanic who changed the pads later had forgotten to put in the locking pins to the pads and it aqua planned on a wet road when the brakes on one side failed . It can take a simple mistake for a devastating series of consequences to happen , so having the vehicles compliance plate correct will save a huge drama if involved in a life threatening situation .

[Franco]

Hi. I had an 03 t4 about 10 yrs ago that i converted myself to a camper. I made the seats with belts from scratch and fitted them myself. I had to get an engineer to certify them as made to an adr rule that escapes me now and also fitted to a similar if not the same adr.
Last yr i bought my t5 and decided to fit a factory made seat ( techsafe ) with belts and compliance to convert to a bed. All i needed this time was a qualified adr rms seat installer to fit it and sign off on it. From there a simple blue slip and Rms then looked at the paperwork and updated rego.

[posscakes]

Hi, thanks all for sharing your thoughts and experience much appreciated.

I pulled this out of the National code of Practice section LK ( the bit that deals with occupant seating)
1
SCOPE
This Section outlines the minimum design, fabrication, and installation requirements for the
installation of seats, seatbelts, anchorage points for seats and seatbelts, child restraint
anchorage points and roll-over protection devices.
Section LK does not cover the installation of externally mounted
roll-bars
,
roll-cages
or other
types of
roll-over protective structures
(ROPS).
Section LK does not apply to ADR Category L-Group vehicles and motor cycles.
1.1
BASIC MODIFICATIONS NOT REQUIRING CERTIFICATION
Fitting a manufacturer’s optional seating configuration to the particular make/model.
1.2
MODIFICATIONS REQUIRING CERTIFICATION UNDER LK CODES
The following modifications require certification under the LK Codes:

Fitting complying seating to complying seat anchorages;

Fitting complying seatbelts to complying seatbelt anchorages;

Fitting complying child restraint anchorages;

Reduction in Seating Capacity; and

Fitting roll-bars, roll-cages and other types of ROPS.

I think the problem with the T4 panel van version is the factory mounts for the seat belts are not there entirely by default (there are two at the bottom the one for the seat belt retractor and another miscellaneous anchor) but the top one i had to do myself albeit in the same spot it would be in caravelle (the hole is already there but not the thread) In hindsight it wasn't wise telling them i fished a threaded plate up the cavity to fasten the seat belt fitting. That is what set them off.

[ian]

Why can’t states be uniform. In my case I removed the 3 seat bench and replaced with genuine Nissan Navara . Bucket seats
The floor of the Navara had all the threaded bolt holes
It wasn’t as if I was installing seats from a different brand. Or. Model
The Ute could of been ordered fitted with the same seats ?
The people who tagged the vehicle just looked to see if all the bolts were. Installed.

[Sunny43.5]

In your case Ian the Nissan would have had the option of two buckets or 3 person bench seat , in that case the vehicle would already comply with ADR34 , changing the seats to factory buckets would be easy but again reducing the seating requires the vehicle be recomplied as the original compliance plate will say seating capacity 3 . In the event of an accident involving injury or death that my friend would give a lawyer defence to say in court that the vehicle does not comply with standards and the driver or whoever changed the vehicle will be liable under the law . Unfortunatly its the litagous world we live in today , people will sue at the drop of a hat and as we all have seen lately when something happens those involved want someone else to blame but themselves . If you read through my previous comment you would see we were in that situation as the parents of the guy who was killed wanted someone to be responsible for their sons death , as it turned out we werent involved from a safety point of view . I agree the abnormality of differeing states is absolute crap as all cars built or imported into Australia have to comply with all relevant ADR regulations , so changing capacity or modifications should be made uniform in some way . I remember one stupid thing that I experienced back in the early 90's we fitted a fleet of Niki FSM,s [Fiat 500 clones ] with a folding sunroof for a hire car company in Byron Bay . The first ten cars were delivered and presented to NSW RTA for rego , well the phone rang almost immediatly as NSW RTA would not register them until I could supply certification from the factory in Holland who made the roof and then that i was fully trained and had certification to do the installs to the factory spec. Meanwhile in Qld same time they did not require any thing at all when a sunroof was installed . At one of the QLD Transport meetings I got to meet with the head of the motor vehicle modification section , we discussed sunroof mods in view of what happened in Byron Bay . He made me laugh when he said "if we ever change the rules re sunroofs we will get you to write the regulations "

[Sunny43.5]

Quote . From Posscakes
I think the problem with the T4 panel van version is the factory mounts for the seat belts are not there entirely by default (there are two at the bottom the one for the seat belt retractor and another miscellaneous anchor) but the top one i had to do myself albeit in the same spot it would be in caravelle (the hole is already there but not the thread) In hindsight it wasn't wise telling them i fished a threaded plate up the cavity to fasten the seat belt fitting. That is what set them off.[/QUOTE]

The fitting of a reinforcing plate in the pillar is a fairly standard way to add the extra seat belt mounts , it can be used in a variety of positions as long as the hole drilled is not within a certain distance of the edge of the metal ie an open cavity . We used to weld a thin metal wire to ours and either feed them up from below or lower them down depending , once in place you had to rivet the plate so if the bolt was removed the plate stayed in place . Like I said on the other comment the T4 and also the T5 were built in Germany as a van configuration ie NA so they did not have to spend extra money on unnecessary extra fabrication ie floor reinforcing seat and seatbelt belt mounts and a lot of other stuff as well .

[posscakes]

The other thing is the seat itself has 3 factory mount points for the stalks and the lap belt etc. The 3rd mount on the drivers side of the seat is only being used to hold a guide for a sash belt. Could i technically use that point to put a second lap belt that way the belts are all part of the seat instead. I'm already invested into engineer report process but i'm keen to know anyway.